JFK - Attentataufdeckung

Aniara schrieb:Kannst du die Maße der Wunde im Z-Film mal genauer beschreiben und erläutern? Würde mich interessieren, wie man da Maße bestimmen kann.

siehe

Groucho schrieb am 24.06.2019:Der Zapruder Film zeigt einen intakten Hinterkopf

Groucho schrieb:Aber du kannst mir natürlich aus deinem Text die Stelle raus suchen, in der steht, dass man das 1963 bei jeder kriminaltechnischen Untersuchung standartmäßig durchgeführt hat.

Wo habe ich behauptet, dass es Standard war?

bredulino schrieb:siehe

Ich sehe keine Angaben zu konkreten Maßen. Also wo kommt deine Aussage her?

bredulino schrieb:warum die Wunde bei der Autopsie größer war als im Z-Film

Wie viel größer denn genau?

Aniara schrieb:Ich sehe keine Angaben zu konkreten Maßen. Also wo kommt deine Aussage her?

Welche Aussage? Welche Maße im Z-Film? Hatte der Hinterkopf im Z-Film andere Maße als in Parkland oder in Bethesda?

Aniara schrieb:Wie viel größer denn genau?

Ca. 4 cm

bredulino schrieb:Wo habe ich behauptet, dass es Standard war?

Implizit in deiner Antwort, da meine Ausgangsfrage ja nicht lautetet ob man das 1963 schon gekannt hat, sondern:

Groucho schrieb am 04.08.2019:Abgesehen davon, wage ich zu bezweifeln, dass eine Blutspitzeranalyse 1963 Standard war.

Beitrag von Groucho (Seite 1.454)

bredulino schrieb:Ca. 4 cm

Ist das geraten oder auf welcher Grundlage basiert diese Aussage?

Aniara schrieb:Ist das geraten oder auf welcher Grundlage basiert diese Aussage?

Du liest seit Jahren fleißig mit und schreibst gegen mich an- du kennst meine Posts zu den 17 cm und Dr. Boswells Aussagen zu dem einen Schädelfragment.

bredulino schrieb:Du liest seit Jahren fleißig mit und schreibst gegen mich an- du kennst meine Posts zu den 17 cm und Dr. Boswells Aussagen zu dem einen Schädelfragment.

Aber du hast doch von dem Z-Film gesprochen, oder nicht?

bredulino schrieb:warum die Wunde bei der Autopsie größer war als im Z-Film

Aniara schrieb:Aber du hast doch von dem Z-Film gesprochen, oder nicht?

Ja, und? groucho doch auch. Was glaubst du denn, warum er darauf beharrt, dass im autopsy report nur von einer Wunde im Schädeldach die Rede wäre?

bredulino schrieb:Ja, und?

Was ist das denn für eine Antwort? Ich habe dich um Erläuterung zu deiner Aussage gebeten, wie du im Z-Film darauf kommst, dass die Maße der Kopfwunde abweichen. Das hast du selbst behauptet. Woran machst de Maße der Kopfwunde im Z-Film fest?
Wenn du dich hier in eine Sache "verrannt" hast, dann seih doch auch so offen und ehrlich und gebe es zu. Damit habe ich kein Problem.

Aniara schrieb:Was ist das denn für eine Antwort? Ich habe dich um Erläuterung zu deiner Aussage gebeten, wie du im Z-Film darauf kommst, dass die Maße der Kopfwunde abweichen. Das hast du selbst behauptet. Woran machst de Maße der Kopfwunde im Z-Film fest? Wenn du dich hier in eine Sache "verrannt" hast, dann seih doch auch so offen und ehrlich und gebe es zu. Damit habe ich kein Problem.

Wo habe ich jemals von Maßen im Z-Film gesprochen?


@JamieStarr
@Nemon
@Nikto

Wer sich einen Übrblick über LHOs Hintergründe besorgen will, dem seien folgende Artikel über Geheimdienst- und Militärverbindungen ans Herz gelegt:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-s-intelligence-connections-how-richard-schweiker-clashes-with-fake-history


Nicht nur bei LHO, sondenr auch in Dealey Plaza und der Polizei von Dallas tauchen Verbindungen zum Militär und seinen Geheimdiensten auf.

https://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2018/04/colonels-at-dealey-plaza.html

ACSI is the intelligence section of the Army Reserves - the weekend warriors who are called up to serve during domestic disasters, civil riots and disturbances, as well as deployed overseas.

ACSI comes into the Dealey Plaza picture multiple times.

1) I wasn't aware of ACSI until I read a book, Our Man in Acapulco, the autobiography of Colonel Frank M. "Brandy" Brandstetter, the Dallas resident and manager of the Havana Hilton when Castro first took over and made the Hilton his residence and headquarters. Brandy was proud of the fact that he was a Colonel in the Army Reserves and the fact he didn't take orders through channels but reported directly to Lt. Colonel William Rose, chief of the Army Reserves intelligence branch - ACSI.

2) I picked up interest in ACSI when I discovered that after George deMohrenschildt visited Oswald, saw the rifle, suspected and joked about Oswald taking a shot at Walker, he left for Haiti. DeMohrenschildtz later found a backyard photo Oswald gave him holding the rifle inscribed "Hunter of Fascists, ha ha." Before going to Haiti DeMohrenschiltz visited CIA officers in New York City and then went to Washington DC where he met with Dorothie Matlack and Colonel Sam Kail of ACSI, Kail had been previously posted to the US embassy in Havana where he worked with Brandy, David Atlee Phillips and David Morales. Did DeMohrenschildtz tell them about Oswald, the rifle and Walker?

3) While deMohrensciltz went to Haiti, Oswald went to New Orleans where he got an apartment on Magazine Street. A week before Oswald himself knew he would be living there, his future residence would be known by Dr.\Col. Jose Rivera, of US Army Reserves ACSI, who also expressed knowledge of Oswald shooting at Walker. How did he know that if DeMohrenschildt didn't tell them?

4) Back on the ground in Dallas, a few days before the assassination, on November 19, Ruth Paine and Marina were visited in Irving by Colonel James "JD" Wilmerth, USAR-ACSI, who questioned them for hours.

5) Although he wasn't approved by the Secret Service, the Pilot car that drove a half mile ahead of the motorcade included a backseat passenger Lt. Colonel George Whitmyer, who was responsible for all US Army Reserve operations in that region of Texas, the guy Colonel Brandy didn't report to.

6) The driver of the pilot car, Dallas Police Captain Lumpkin, did report to him, as did most of the DPD Special Services Unit that worked out of a special office at the Texas State Fairgrounds. The Pilot car was responsible for observing the motorcade route to determine if everything was safe and to look for any possible hazards or potential problems. None were seen. When Lumpkin made the turn from Houston to Elm he pulled to the curb in front of the Texas Schoolbook Depository to tell one of the three traffic policemen that the motorcade was a few minutes away, inadvertently informing the Sixth Floor sniper sixty feet above them, rifle in hand.

7) Then in the hours after the assassination, Col. Jack Crichton, 488th Military Intelligence detachment, USAR-ACSI, provided the Dallas Police with an interpreter, who misinterpreted key elements of Marina Oswald's statements. Crichton was also responsible for operating the Emergency Management Command Post that was located in a nuke proof underground bunker at the Texas State Fairgrounds, near the DPD Special Services Unit offices.

8) Another DPD Special Services officer who served in the Army Reserves (Springfellow), based on Marina's statements, sent an official message to the US Air Force Tactical Strike Command in support of the Phase One - Castro Cuban Conspiracy, apparently before LBJ put the skids on it and reverted to the Phase Two lone but scenario.

https://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2016/07/of-plots-and-plans-how-jfk-was-murdered.html

bredulino schrieb:Wo habe ich jemals von Maßen im Z-Film gesprochen?

Du willst mich doch auf den Arm nehmen, oder? :D

bredulino schrieb:warum die Wunde bei der Autopsie größer war als im Z-Film

Für solch eine Aussage brauchst du doch wenigstens grobe Maße, oder war es einfach nur geraten?

Aniara schrieb:Für solch eine Aussage brauchst du doch wenigstens grobe Maß,eo der war es einfach nur geraten?

Für so eien Aussage braucht man keine Maße, sondern Aussagen von OTler und den Autopsiebericht:

Groucho schrieb am 24.06.2019:Der Zapruder Film zeigt einen intakten Hinterkopf

Groucho schrieb am 25.06.2019:Zudem gibt es auch Fotos vom Hinterkopf und da sieht der den Umständen entsprechend auch ziemlich intakt aus. Passt also bestens zum Zapruder Film.

There is a large irregular defect of the scalp and skull on the right involving chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions.

bredulino schrieb:Für so eien Aussage braucht man keine Maße

Also hast du mehr eine Vermutung, dass es für dich so aussieht, als würde die Wunde im Z-Film nicht zum Autopsie-Bericht passen. Deine Meinung ist natürlich legitim, aber bietet keine handfeste Diskussionsgrundlage, da wir die Wunde nicht vollständig im Film sehen können sondern nur von der Seite.

Aniara schrieb:Also hast du mehr eine Vermutung, dass es für dich so aussieht, als würde die Wunde im Z-Film nicht zum Autopsie-Bericht passen. Deine Meinung ist natürlich legitim, aber bietet keine handfeste Diskussionsgrundlage, da wir die Wunde nicht vollständig im Film sehen können sondern nur von der Seite.

Aber der Hinterkopf ist doch zu sehen, und zwar intakt! Warum merkst du erst nach all den Jahren, dass groucho, ich und andere die Fehlwahrrnehmung hatten, dass der Hinterkopf zu sehen sei...

@Nikto
@Nemon
@JamieStarr
@sunlay

LBJs langjähriger Mitarbeiter und Freund Jack Valenti bestätigt, dass LBJ ausdrücklich erst mit der AF1 starten wollte, wenn die Leiche an Bord sein würde. Darüber hinaus bestätigt er das gegenüber Bobby und Jackie unsensible, respektlose Verhalten.

Valenti and "The Body"

In his 1975 defense of Johnson, A Very Human President, former Johnson aide Jack Valenti offered up a fascinating insight into Johnson's actions on 11-22-63. Valenti sat with Johnson on the plane while waiting for Mrs. Kennedy, and was intimately aware of Johnson's thoughts during this period. He wrote of Johnson's decision to be sworn into office as soon as possible--which, while unnecessary, was nevertheless politically desirable. He then added "before Air Force One departed for Washington, Johnson had also made his first command decision, on his own, to wait for the body of the dead president to be brought aboard before he gave an order to be airborne. This was an intuitive decision and a good one." So... Johnson, a man famous for seeking advice, had decided not to leave without the body, and had come to this decision entirely on his own, after reaching Air Force One. Hmmm...

And this wasn't a one-time misstatement. In a 1978 WBBM interview with Bob Wallace (found on youtube), Valenti repeated and expanded upon this claim. He said that, after reaching Air Force One, "Johnson made two decisions: one, that he would not leave without the body of President Kennedy aboard. And second, as an act of symbolism--he didn't need to--he was gonna be sworn in on that airplane. And so we waited for some minutes until the body of the slain president could be brought aboard. He was not about to return to Washington without the body...There was some confusion about the local coroner, the red tape. But Johnson was adamant that he was not leaving until the dead president's body was aboard."
In a demonstration of both Valenti's certainty on this point, and his confusion regarding others, moreover, he told the Kennedy Library, in an oral history performed 5-25-82, that while he observed little tension between Johnson and the Kennedy faction on the plane back from Dallas, he did see General Godfrey McHugh "running rather hysterically up and down the airplane. Trying to take charge." He then offered "The new president gave orders that he was going to wait for the body of the late president, of which McHugh was furious about." Valenti had forgotten, one can only assume, that McHugh had arrived with the body of the late President, and was trying to get the plane airborne, unaware that Johnson was on the plane, refusing to let it take off until he'd been sworn-in.
And that wasn't the last time Valenti made this mistake about McHugh. An article by Valenti published in the 11-22-88 Washington Post related that, upon his arrival at the plane: "Gen. Godfrey McHugh, President Kennedy's Air Force aide, now seemingly in command of the presidential plane, had ordered it into the air. He did not know that LBJ had already communicated to the pilot that Air Force One was not to depart until President Kennedy's body had been brought aboard." The body, not the widow.
By the time of his 7-15-91 interview with Deborah Hart Strober and Gerald S. Strober, thankfully, Valenti stopped claiming McHugh arrived before the body. He did, however, continue making his other claim: that Johnson was waiting for Kennedy's body, and not Mrs. Kennedy. He said that on the plane "Johnson made two command decisions that, in retrospect, were so right. one was that he wasn't going to leave without the coffin of the thirty-fifth president; number two, he wanted to be sworn in so that the picture of that swearing-in would be flashed around the world..."




In an 11-21-93 article in the Washington Post, discussing the events of 11-22-63, moreover, Valenti further recalled that, once aboard Air Force One, "Johnson made two command decisions: First he would be sworn in aboard Air Force One...Second, he would not leave Dallas until the coffin of the 35th president had been brought aboard. Though Bobby Kennedy had counseled otherwise, the new president was firm."

And that wasn't the last time Valenti claimed Johnson was waiting for Kennedy's body, with no mention of his purportedly all-encompassing concern for Mrs. Kennedy. No, far from it. An 11-22-98 New York Times article by Valenti confirmed that, after installing himself on Air Force One, Johnson's "first decision was that he would not leave Dallas without the body of President Kennedy on board" and that "his second decision was to be sworn in on the plane, before departure." An 11-20-03 article by Valenti in USA Today similarly claimed: "On Air Force One, I observed how LBJ, when the dagger was at the nation's belly and his own, made historical decisions quickly and decisively. While the rest of the plane's occupants were in varying states of hysteria, LBJ was supernaturally calm, as if he had brought all his volcanic passions under stern harness. He made, on the spot, two key visionary decisions. First, although he was urged to get in the air immediately for his safety, he said, "No, I will not leave until the body of President Kennedy is brought aboard." Second, he was determined to be sworn in as president on the plane, although Justice Department officials insisted he already was president. But Johnson wanted a photograph of his formal ascension to the presidency to be flashed around the globe, to soothe a frightened nation and an equally fearful world." An 11-22-03 AP article on Valenti by Sharon Theimer then echoed this claim, reporting: "Johnson made two decisions instantly, Valenti said: He refused to let Air Force One take him back to Washington without Kennedy's body on board, and insisted on taking the oath of office on the plane. A deputy attorney general assured Johnson he already was president, but Johnson took the oath there anyway..." And, no, that wasn't the last of it, either. In his 2007 memoir This Time, This Place, Valenti claimed yet again and for the permanent record that Johnson "understood intuitively that he could not leave the body of President Kennedy alone in Dallas."

Well, this is curious, and a bit suspicious to those inclined to suspicion. Why would Johnson refuse to leave Dallas without the President's body--to which he had no right? Valenti's explanation in the Times article that "LBJ foresaw that he would be maligned for being so eager to be President that he left behind his predecessor's body" makes little sense in that the alternative--that he would quite correctly be criticized for forcing Kennedy's widow to wait around on the tarmac in Dallas for an additional 30-40 minutes, and then stand by him in her blood-stained clothes during an unnecessary swearing-in ceremony--was something he should also have foreseen, and avoided.

Valenti's latter-day recollections just can't be ignored. There is reason, after all, to believe his latter-day recollections are in fact not so latter day... Valenti's 1975 book on Johnson, A Very Human President, in which he first mentioned Johnson's interest in Kennedy's body, also contains Valenti's notes on a July 25, 1964 background discussion between Johnson and two newsmen, Dan Rather of CBS News and Bob Thompson of the L.A. Times. These notes state: "Mr. Johnson, in reply to a direct question, said that he had thought an international conspiracy might be underway to 'flatten us out.' Because of this concern, the president said, he ordered that Air Force One be moved at the airport. Then, he said, he decided to go directly to the plane from Parkland Hospital. Even beyond that point, the president said, he had grave doubts about the advisability of 'sitting at the airport' for two hours, but he felt it imperative that President Kennedy's body be returned immediately to Washington."

No mention of Mrs. Kennedy, or of Johnson's simply acquiescing to her wishes when he flew home with the body of her recently murdered husband. No mention that there was a second jet standing by for Mrs. Kennedy and the body should Johnson have left immediately, as proposed by his advisers. No mention of his determination that she not fly home alone. No, here, according to Valenti's contemporaneous notes of a Johnson background discussion with two newsmen, was Johnson himself claiming that he was waiting for the body--the BODY--because he felt it imperative it be returned to Washington. Right away. With him.
There's also this. In his January 11, 1967 column on the events on the tarmac in Dallas, we should recall, Drew Pearson reported that "It took about an hour to overcome local red tape and drive Kennedy's body to the waiting airplane." He then explained: "Air Force One, the Presidential plane, had been waiting for Kennedy's body. This delay was on the personal order of the new President, and contrary to the wishes of the Secret Service." And, no, Pearson's reference to the body wasn't a typo, or shorthand for "Mrs Kennedy who was traveling with the body." A few paragraphs later, he repeated that "Johnson ordered the plane to wait for Kennedy's body." The BODY...
Pearson's column thereby adds weight to Valenti's subsequent statements suggesting Johnson's preoccupation on 11-22-63 was not with Mrs. Kennedy, but with her husband's body. Even if Valenti was by chance Pearson's sole source for these statements, moreover, it proves Valenti's recollections were fully formed by 1967, and not something that slipped out later.
And there's also this. One of the earliest scholarly books on Johnson was Sam Johnson's Boy, by Alfred Steinberg. It was released in July 1968, while Johnson was still President. Although, like Manchester and Bishop, Steinberg failed to cite his sources for particular passages, he did list the names of fifty or so Texas and Washington insiders with whom he consulted in the writing of his book. Jack Valenti was not among them. Even so, Steinberg includes the following description of Johnson's thinking upon arrival on Air Force One: "Johnson quickly made two decisions. Kennedy's remains would travel to Washington with him so that he would not appear to be in unseemly hustle to take charge...Johnson's second decision was that he would be sworn in on the plane before taking off for Washington. Using Kennedy's bedroom phone on the plane, he telephoned Bobby Kennedy at his Virginia home. Although the President's brother was in a state of shock, he took the call. After telling Bobby that his brother's murder 'might be part of a world-wide plot,' Johnson asked whether he should take the oath in Dallas, and, if so, what was the form of the oath? Bobby ignored the first question and said he would call him back on the second."
Well, this is more than curious, and more than a bit suspicious, wouldn't you say? Why did Johnson think it imperative he gain control of Kennedy's body? Valenti's explanation, which mirrors the explanation offered by Steinberg--that Johnson was scared people would talk if he didn't return with Kennedy's body--seems inadequate. Did Johnson really feel that leaving the body in Dallas would make him look ambitious, or weak, and divide the nation's attention? Upon arrival in Washington, the body was taken to Bethesda Naval Hospital, where an autopsy was performed. The decision to go to Bethesda was made by Mrs. Kennedy, after speaking to Dr. Burkley, her husband's physician. Burkley had suggested she choose a military hospital. Had Burkley spoken to Johnson as well? Had Johnson told Burkley he wanted the body removed from civilian control as fast as possible?
Hmmm...one can only wonder...
If there's an innocent explanation for this body-snatching, for that matter, why would Johnson later lie about it, and make out that his sole interest was Mrs. Kennedy's welfare, and that the decision to return the body on Air Force One was entirely her own?

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-21-things-that-make-me-say-hmmm (Archiv-Version vom 23.06.2019)

JamieStarr schrieb am 02.08.2019:Interessant die m Mn Einschußlöcher im Verkehrsschild. Muß man sich genau anschauen.

Hast du dir die denn mal genau angeschaut?
Oder willst du nicht mehr darüber sprechen? Ich meine ... du hast damit angefangen, oder?