JFK - Attentataufdeckung

Lambach schrieb:Die Faktenlage ist also die: Aller Wahrscheinlichkeit nach konnte der Stretcher, auf dem eine Kugel gefunden wurde, gar nicht Connallys Stretcher sein.

Nein, diese Schlussfolgerung teile ich nicht.

Übrigens: Für die single bullet theorie ist es völlig unerheblich, ob CE399 besagte Kugel ist, oder ob überhaupt eine gefunden wurde.

Groucho schrieb:Übrigens: Für die single bullet theorie ist es völlig unerheblich, ob CE399 besagte Kugel ist, oder ob überhaupt eine gefunden wurd

Inwiefern?

@bredulino
Hast du schon mal Wikipedia-Einträge korrigiert? Würdest du sowas tun, schließlich ist Wikipedia für jeden zugänglich und editierbar. Solange man es mit passenden Quellen belegt.

Aniara schrieb:Solange man es mit passenden Quellen belegt.

Und ob eine Quzelle seriös ist, wird sehr wohl früher oder später kontrolliert und unseriöse Quellen und Änderungen werden dann eben wieder entfernt.

Groucho schrieb:Nein, diese Schlussfolgerung teile ich nicht.

Na glücklicherweise ist das eine pure Behauptung, die nicht auf den präsentierten Fakten beruht.
Gerne kannst du aber Punkt für Punkt darlegen, warum du diese Schlussfolgerung nicht teilst und wir diskutieren es dann.

Groucho schrieb:Übrigens: Für die single bullet theorie ist es völlig unerheblich, ob CE399 besagte Kugel ist, oder ob überhaupt eine gefunden wurde.

Im Prinzip hast du Recht, da die Single Bullet Theorie streng genommen nur die prinzipielle Möglichkeit betrifft, ob eine beliebige Kugel überhaupt so eine Flugbahn nehmen und dabei sämtliche Wunden bei Kennedy und Connally verursachen kann.

Zur Magic Bullet Theorie wird sie, wenn dann noch CE 399 als DIE Kugel ins Spiel kommt.
Auf diesen Unterschied habe ich oft aufmerksam gemacht, aber offenbar erschien das vielen zu spitzfindig, so daß sich der Begriff Magic Bullet Theorie hier nicht etablieren konnte.

Dennoch: Da Specter CE 399 auserkoren hat, die ballistischen und sonstigen Wundertaten zu verbringen, handelt es sich selbstverständlich in diesem Fall sehr wohl um die Magic Bullet Theorie, die er aufgestellt hat.

Aniara schrieb:Hast du schon mal Wikipedia-Einträge korrigiert? Würdest du sowas tun, schließlich ist Wikipedia für jeden zugänglich und editierbar. Solange man es mit passenden Quellen belegt.

Ob und wann ich was wo mache, überlässt du bitte immer noch mir ... ;)

Wenn ich dann die richtigen Informationen hier im Forum präsentiert haben werde, kannst gerne du diese Aufgabe übernehmen, wenn dir

1. offensichtlich so viel daran liegt und
2. du vielleicht auch mal einen Beitrag leisten willst.

Lambach schrieb: kannst gerne du diese Aufgabe übernehmen, wenn dir

Wenn du passende Quellen hast, dann mache ich das gerne. 

off-peak schrieb:Und ob eine Quzelle seriös ist, wird sehr wohl früher oder später kontrolliert und unseriöse Quellen und Änderungen werden dann eben wieder entfernt.

Das ist auch gut so, sonst würde Wikipedia schnell vermüllen und unbrauchbar werden. :) 

@Aniara

Ja, und aus diesem Grunde ist WIKI auch eingermaßen zuverlässig.

Aniara schrieb:Hast du schon mal Wikipedia-Einträge korrigiert?

nein

Aniara schrieb:Würdest du sowas tun, schließlich ist Wikipedia für jeden zugänglich und editierbar.

warum "würde ich sowas tun?"

Lambach schrieb:Na glücklicherweise ist das eine pure Behauptung, die nicht auf den präsentierten Fakten beruht.

Was für Fakten?

Zwei der drei Befragten sagen letztlich, dass sie sich ihrer Aussage nicht sicher sind (war viel los, Chaos, man hat nicht so genau hingesehen).
Und auch die Schwester sagt an mehreren Stellen, sie könne sich nicht genau erinnern.

Der einzige wirkliche Fakt, den wir haben, ist der Fund der Kugel im Krankenhaus.

Lambach schrieb:Im Prinzip hast du Recht, da die Single Bullet Theorie streng genommen nur die prinzipielle Möglichkeit betrifft, ob eine beliebige Kugel überhaupt so eine Flugbahn nehmen und dabei sämtliche Wunden bei Kennedy und Connally verursachen kann.

Eben

bredulino schrieb:warum "würde ich sowas tun?"

Warum denn nicht? Um die Wahrheit zu verbreiten und die Fehler zu korrigieren, das ist doch dein gutes Recht. 

Groucho schrieb:Was für Fakten?

Die, die ich dir aufgezählt habe:

• kein anderer Stretcher im Aufzug während der Schicht Jimisions
• chirurgische Instrumente auf dem Stretcher mit der Kugel
• nichts außer zwei Laken und einer Matratze auf Connallys Strechter

Die angeblichen Unsicherheiten sind nichts weiter als das Ergbenis von Specters suggestiver Befragung. Auf die Frage "Könnten da XY auf dem Stretcher gewesen sein?" kann man unter Eid gar nichts anderes tun, als einzuräumen, daß das prinzipiell der Fall gewesen sein könnte. Das hat erstens nicht mit Unsicherheit zu tun und  zweitens nicht mit den aufgezählten Fakten.

Groucho schrieb:Und auch die Schwester sagt an mehreren Stellen, sie könne sich nicht genau erinnern.

Dann kopiere bitte die entsprechenden Passagen aus dem Spoiler, um deine Aussage zu belegen:

SpoilerTestimony Of Jane Carolyn Wester

The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER - Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss WESTER - I do.
Mr. SPECTER - May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy and Governor Connally following their being shot.
The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you state your full name, for the record, please?
Miss WESTER - Jane Carolyn Wester.
Mr. SPECTER - And what is your residence address, Miss Wester?
Miss WESTER - 1107 Brockbank, Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you received a letter of notification from the President.'s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking testimony from you in connection with this proceeding, Miss Wester?
Miss WESTER - Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER - And at that time did you receive the copies of the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?
Miss WESTER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER - And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor Connally?
Miss WESTER - Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. SPECTER - And President Kennedy?
Miss WESTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your occupation or profession, please?
Miss WESTER - I am a registered nurse.
Mr. SPECTER - And at what institution are you employed?
Miss WESTER - Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER - And how long have you been so employed at Parkland Memorial Hospital?
Miss WESTER - Nine years ---- or 9 1/2.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were back on November 22, 1963?
Miss WESTER - I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to receive treatment?
Miss WESTER - I was not aware that they were in the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER - When was it first brought to your attention, if at all?
Miss WESTER - At noon, around noon---noontime---I'm not sure as to the exact time it was. I was relieving the secretary for lunch and the phone rang. Someone in the pathology department asked if the President were in the operating room and I answered them, "No," and they said that a Secret Service agent was down there and as soon as the President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them.
Mr. SPECTER - What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland?
Miss WESTER - I received a phone call from the emergency room asking us to set up for a craniotomy.
Mr. SPECTER - And what is a craniotomy in lay language?
Miss WESTER - That's an exploration of the head.
Mr. SPECTER - Was there any other request made at that time?
Miss WESTER - Yes--well--immediately following, following that I received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of the chest.
Mr. SPECTER - And were those two set ups made in accordance with the requests you received?
Miss WESTER - Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two rooms for these two cases.
Mr. SPECTER - And what room was used for the craniotomy?
Miss WESTER - The craniotomy was set up in room 7.
Mr. SPECTER - And what room was used for the thoracotomy?
Miss WESTER - The thoracotomy was set up in room 5.
Mr. SPECTER - And on what floor were the two rooms?
Miss WESTER - Well, on the south wing of the second floor.
Mr. SPECTER - What happened next in connection with this matter?
Miss WESTER - I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep traffic out of the operating room and keep people back---keep the halls clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating room with several doctors---arrived by stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first floor, or by what means of locomotion?
Miss WESTER - The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the operating room---it comes directly from emergency room and which---there were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up.
Mr. SPECTER - And what happened to the stretcher after it left the elevator on the second floor of the operating room area?
Miss WESTER - The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself.
Mr. SPECTER - About how far is that from the elevator door?
Miss WESTER - Approximately 50 feet.
Mr. SPECTER - What was done then with Governor Connally on the stretcher, following the point where you met them?
Miss WESTER - We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and placed them in the hallway by the operating table.
Mr. SPECTER - In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when you first saw him on the stretcher?
Miss WESTER - As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on.
Mr. SPECTER - Had his clothes then been removed by that time?
Miss WESTER - Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the bottom of the cart in a paper sack.
Mr. SPECTER - And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an operating table?
Miss WESTER - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the operating room?
Miss WESTER - No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5--we transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into the operating room.
Mr. SPECTER - And did he have any clothing on at the time you transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table?
Miss WESTER - I don't recall any clothes that he had on.
Mr. SPECTER - What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating table?
Miss WESTER - The operating table was moved into the operating room and at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to sleep.
Mr. SPECTER - What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at that time.
Miss WESTER - Dr.---there were many---Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e (spelling)---there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and there were many others---right offhand, I can't remember.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you go into the operating room at that time?
Miss WESTER - I went as far as the doorway with him.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to that point?
Miss WESTER - I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle.
Mr. SPECTER - Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?
Miss WESTER - I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle.
Mr. SPECTER - What is the next normal procedure with respect to the number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances?
Miss WESTER - The cart---the mattress on the cart is covered with one sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart.
Mr. SPECTER - What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?
Miss WESTER - There were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles---well, packed in and sterilized in. There were several others---some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.
Mr. SPECTER - Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher cart?
Miss WESTER - Right off, I can't remember---
Mr. SPECTER - Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart?
Miss WESTER - There could have been---I don't recall right off---I can't remember that.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER - I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a curved hemostat---I couldn't say for sure---I'm not sure.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that particular spot?
Miss WESTER - There is a clock.
Mr. SPECTER - About how far from the clock is the door to the operating room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken?
Miss WESTER - I would say approximately 75 feet.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor Connally was taken off of it?
Miss WESTER - I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it Wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up---
Mr. SPECTER - His initials are R. J.?
Miss WESTER - And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see that stretcher any more that day?
Miss WESTER - Not What I know of.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher looked like?
Miss WESTER - Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin mattress on it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper shelf of the cart.
Mr. SPECTER - And what is it constructed of?
Miss WESTER - Well, it's a metal---steel.
Mr. SPECTER - What was done with the mattress?
Miss WESTER - It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER - No.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER - No; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling the sheets up.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER - No.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you interviewed. by the Secret Service about these events at some time in the past?
Miss WESTER - Yes; I was.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you interviewed by anyone else?
Miss WESTER - No.
Mr. SPECTER - And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or more than one occasion?
Miss WESTER - Only one occasion.
Mr. SPECTER - And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you about the purpose of this proceeding?
Miss WESTER - Yes; you did.
Mr. SPECTER - And about the facts to which you have testified since this formal deposition started?
Miss WESTER - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And at that did you tell me all the facts previously testified to here to this effect?
Miss WESTER - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have anything on it?
Miss WESTER - It had some blood.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort concerning the matters about which you have testified here today?
Miss WESTER - No; I haven't.
Mr. SPECTER - That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much for appearing here.
Miss WESTER - Fine.

Groucho schrieb:Eben

Du zitierst wieder einmal nur jenen Part aus dem Posting, der dir scheinbar Recht gibt und ignorierst den Rest.
Das ist nicht wirklich diskutieren, oder?

@Groucho


Weitere Beweise, daß die Kugel 399 nicht auf Connallys Stretcher gewesen sein konnte:

Mr. SPECTER - And could it have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?
Colonel FINCK - No; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/finck.htm

Mr. SPECTER - And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?
Commander HUMES - I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on those two answers?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes, please do.
Commander HUMES - The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion exit wound showing metallic fragments.
Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the wrist is found:
"Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination."
The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be in tact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/humes.htm (Archiv-Version vom 04.09.2016)

@Aniara
Diese Info könntest du z. B. schon mal versuchen auf Wiki einzutragen.

@bredulino

Und was tragen Deine Zitate zur "Single-Bullet-Theorie" und der Gewehrbestellung jetzt zur Sache bei?

Lambach schrieb:Die angeblichen Unsicherheiten sind nichts weiter als das Ergbenis von Specters suggestiver Befragung.

Völliger Unsinn.
Tomlinson sagt selbst, dass er schon bei den Befragungen davor, von USSS und FBI unsicher war.
Und Jimison hat schon recht früh im Interview gesagt, dass viel los war, niemand so genau geschaut hat und er nicht sicher wisse....

Dann kopiere bitte die entsprechenden Passagen aus dem Spoiler, um deine Aussage zu belegen:

Lambach schrieb:Right off, I can't remember---

Sagte Webster (um nur eines zu zitieren)

Lambach schrieb:Weitere Beweise, daß die Kugel 399 nicht auf Connallys Stretcher gewesen sein konnte:

Im Moment geht es doch erst mal darum, wo überhaupt eine Kugel gefunden wurde

Lambach schrieb:Diese Info könntest du z. B. schon mal versuchen auf Wiki einzutragen.

Ich bin mir nicht sicher, aber ich würde sagen, dieses Interview ist bereits auf Wikipedia zu finden, aber ich kann ja mal nachschauen.

Bei politisch heiklen Themen ist es kaum möglich, die Deutungshoheit von Wikipedia zu korrigieren, wie der langjährige Admin FMD bestätigt, der rausgemobbt und mundtod gemacht wurde.

Von Markus Fiedler, dem Macher der Doku "Die dunkle Seite der Wikipedia" gibt es eine neue Doku über die organsierte Manipulation der Wikipedia, Premiere am 18.Feb.17 im Berliner Babylon

@Zilli
Is jetzt offtopic aber den Typen geht es nur darum den ruf von Ganser wiederherzustellen. Von dem kommen in interviews die typischen aussagen rechter VTler.. währe vielleicht einen eigenen tread wert..

Zilli schrieb:die Deutungshoheit von Wikipedia zu korrigieren

Wikipedia basiert auf Fakten und Belegen, da wird nichts rumgedeutelt. Daher werden auch nur Änderugnen akzeptiert, die belegt werden können. Da kann nicht jeder einfach reisnchreiben, was ihm in den Sinn kommt.