Alevitischer Religionsunterricht an deutschen Schulen

"demokratischen selbstverständnisses"

"einen islamischen, antidemokratischen unterricht"

Demokratie ist keine Deutsche Erfindung und kein Deutsches Patent,

es wurde in Deutschland zuletzt eingeführt, nach der Kapitulation.

Demokratie ist das Recht, Meinung.. des anderen zu achten und zu respektieren,

solange diese nicht einem anderen die Rechte verletzen.

Weil ihr nicht an Gott glaubt und/oder es nicht sinnvoll hält das andere das lernen, könnt ihr nicht verlangen das die anderen darauf verzichten.

Das gleiche könnt ihr auch z.B. nicht von den konservativen bayrischen Christ erwarten und fordern, das ist sein demokratisches Recht.

Was wollen wir, wollen wir mit demokratischen Rechten "unsere" Probleme lösen, oder durch Verbote.

Verbote die die freie Meinungs- und Glaubensfreiheit verhindern, sind keine Lösung und würden alles verschlimmern.

Was spricht dagegen, wenn der Islam, denen die wollen, in Schulen gelehrt wird, wo der Staat den Lehrstoff kontrollieren kann.

Stellt euch mal vor, die Christen dürften nur noch in Hinterhöfen die Möglichkeit haben ihren glauben zu lernen und auszuüben.

Was meint ihr dann, wie viele Sekten enstehen würden, die man nicht kontrollieren könnte, unteranderem auch solche wie Scientology.

Nein, das wäre nicht die Lösung.

Ich kann auch die Atheisten nicht verstehen, die alles Religiöse anfechten, wobei diese Denkweise in keiner Hinsicht Lösungen für den Menschen bringt und mit Sicherheit unmenschlicher ist, und keineswegs weniger brutal zu den Menschen ist.

Der Islam ist die Relgion des Friedens, die Terroristen handeln nicht nach dem Islam, mehr als 99% der Muslime verurteilen diese Anschläge.

Ein Muslim MUSS sich an die Gesteze des Landes halten, in dem er lebt, solange man von ihm nichts undemokratisches verlangt.

blabla, monte,
du hast keine ahnung, was demokratie bedeutet.

du vergleichst hier lustig einen christkonservativen bayern mit einem muslim.
selbstverständlich ist in meinen augen ein erzkatholik nicht symphatischer als ein wie auch immer gearteter gläubige.
die probleme beginnen,
wenn ein gläubiger meint
aus seinem glauben heraus etwas anderes wahrnehmen zu müssen
als die gültige rechtsprechung

der bayer kann von mir aus dreimal am tag zum beten flitzen
und ihr moslems könnt euch 5 mal am tag gen mekka neigen,
solange daraus nicht irgendwann ein anspruch auf weltliche regelungen erwachsen

buddel

Ungläubiger schrieb:Ich frag mich, warum die sunnitischen Muslime die Aleviten so krampfhaft als Muslime sehen wollen, bzw. es nicht ertragen können, wenn sich viele Aleviten selbst nicht als Muslime sehen.

Arabische oder andere Muslime haben z.B. kein großes Problem damit, die Aleviten als Nicht-Msulime anzusehen.

Für mich ist das Irrelevant ob Sunnite oder Alevite oder Schiite, diese Aufspaltungen des Islams zeigt doch eventuell das Bedürfnis diesen Glauben im Laufe der Zeit zu Modernisieren oder ein Versuch es Weiter zu Entwickeln ?

Es könnten auch andere Zweige des Islams Enstanden Sein von dem ich nichts weiss?

montecristo schrieb:Ich kann auch die Atheisten nicht verstehen, die alles Religiöse anfechten, wobei diese Denkweise in keiner Hinsicht Lösungen für den Menschen bringt und mit Sicherheit unmenschlicher ist, und keineswegs weniger brutal zu den Menschen ist.

Auf keinen Fall Fechtet ein Atheist alles Religiöse an :) Das ist ein Irrtum

Er kann aber bestimmte Texte Anfechten die in Einigen Büchern Zitiert werden diese Texte sind es die Scheinbar Unantasbar sein Sollen die nicht zu Wiedersprechen sind
und Angeblich von einer Höheren Macht Stammen Soll !

Für mich ist es eine Tatsache das diese Schlauen Texte nicht von Göttlicher Natur Sind Sondern Menschlichen Ursprungs.

Und für mich Steht es ausser Frage das wenn viele Menschen das Bedürfnis haben zu Galuben das Sie es auch Praktizieren Sollen, denn Anscheinend Sehen Viele Menschen darin eine Hoffnung und die Sollte Ihnen nicht genommen werden !

Ich kann es mir aber Erlauben gegen diese Höhere Macht zu Wiedersprechen nicht weil ich kein Gläubiger Mensch bin sondern weil ich mich vor dieser Macht nicht fürchte, ich zum Beispiel besitze auch Ideale und Ziele die ich Anstrebe !

soundtrack,

"diese Aufspaltungen des Islams zeigt doch eventuell das Bedürfnis diesen Glauben im Laufe der Zeit zu Modernisieren oder ein Versuch es Weiter zu Entwickeln ?"

diese aufspaltungen bedeuteten nichts weiter,
als dass die eine gruppe gläubiger als die anderen sein wollte.

eine weiterentwicklung wäre doch eine grössere,
weltweite akzeptanz des wortes des koran.
ich sehe nur spaltungen innerhalb der umma

buddel

buddel schrieb:eine weiterentwicklung wäre doch eine grössere,
weltweite akzeptanz des wortes des koran.
ich sehe nur spaltungen innerhalb der umma

Nun als Weiterentwicklung Sehe ich in einem Schlüsselwort oder ich bringe es damit in Verbinung :)

Wenn in der Zukunft vielleicht in den Texten das Wort " Du Sollst" in das Wort " Du Solltest Versuchen" abgelöst werden könnte da Danke ich würde der Islam einen Grossen Schritt vorwärts machen :)

Türkischer Präsident Abdullah Gül findet versöhnliche Worte für die Aleviten

Islamische Minderheit der Aleviten wird von Abdullah Gül geehrt
Die dem islamischen Prediger Fetullah Gülen nahe stehende Tageszeitung "Zaman" berichtet von einer Jahresfeier der Gemeinschaft der Aleviten. Die Aleviten machen in der Türkei zwischen 6 und 12 Mio. Menschen aus und unterscheiden sich vom sunnitischen Islam erheblich. In vielen Fragen sind sie wesentlich liberaler. Der türkische Präsident Abdullah Gül hat das Festival in der zentralanatolischen Kleinstadt Hacibektas besucht und bei einer Ansprache gesagt: "Alle von uns, Aleviten, Sunniten, Kurden und Türken sind Mitglieder einer Nation. Wir werden weiterhin zu einer Nation gehören und niemand wird uns jemals trennen".

Quelle:www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=150496


________________________________________________________________________

Ich persönlich finde es wichtig, dass ein sunnitischer Politiker versucht sich den Aleviten anzunähern, welche durch schlechte Erfahrungen in der Vergangenheit - sich den islam abgeschworen haben, wenn auch nicht alle. Jedenfalls heiße ich diese Schritt für gut, und wünsche für die zukunft weitere Annäherungsversuche, sowie förderung des "Islambewusstsein" bei den Aleviten. Auch finde ich gut, dass er Kurden, sowie Türken als gemeinsames Volk ansieht, und sie wie jene politiker vor ihm leugnete.

Hochlebe der Islam und der Monat Ramadan^^

Wa^salam

Zustimmung

"Zufällig" ist es ein Vertreter eienr islamisch orientierten Partei

deswegen haben die alviten trotzdem kein Zutritt nach mekka ;)

Nach Mekka hat jeder Zutritt, der sich als Muslim ausgibt

In der Zeit des Propheten hatten Nichtmuslime auch Zutritt - oder verhandelte der Gesandte Allahs nur mit Muslimen in der Kaaba?

Nach einer Überlieferung von Imam Malik dürfen Angehörige den heiligen Bezirk betreten

nach saudi arabischen recht, haben alviten kein zu tritt ,schreibt du im visa glauben Gemeinschaft alvite, ,dann bekommt man mit Sicherheit kein Visa, schreibt man aber muslim dann ja.
genau so kann jeder muslim schreiben und darf denn ort betretten.

@Idrit786.. die türkische Bevölkerung besteht aus 99% Muslimen. Bei jeden Aleviten steht auch im Pass Muslim....

ataurk ist soll ja noch gott kommen für manchne türken, da ist sowas verstandich ;)

@ Ifrit666

Oh nein, Ranjid, bist du es wieder ?

Religionsunterricht ist generell unnötig und sollte durch Ethik/ Philisophie ersetzt werden

Alevism is really on the fringe of Islam," Zarcone said. "Culturally, it is linked to the Muslim world. But it represents an Islam that has distanced itself [from] everything that represents Muslim orthodoxy, even with Shiism. The big mistake is to consider Alevis as Shia Muslims. In fact, Alevis are crypto-Shias."

Zarcone describes Alevism as "a kind of religious syncretism based on ancient Turkish beliefs which still has some elements of animism and shamanism in it and which, at some point in its history, has integrated some ideas borrowed from Shiism."

Turkish Alevis and Sufism
Turkey’s Alevis fear secularism under threat (November 1, 2005) in *Dawn* [Pakistan]

By Jon Hemming

YENICEKOY (Turkey): Everyone in the Turkish village of Yenicekoy is Muslim. They have a mosque, but no one goes there. It is Ramazan, but no one is fasting. Turkey’s Alevis are one of Islam’s most liberal sects. They sing and play mystical music at religious ceremonies attended by men and women. They drink alcohol, do not fast and do not go on pilgrimage to Makkah.

Long oppressed under Ottoman rule, the Alevis say they still face discrimination, even though the government has officially championed religious freedoms and human rights as it bids to gain membership to the European Union.

In a country where most Muslims belong to the Sunni group and Islam is tightly controlled by Ankara’s Religious Affairs Directorate or Diyanet, the Alevis say they have been neglected.

“The Diyanet is the state’s religious institution, but only represents Sunni beliefs,” said Fevzi Gumus, general-secretary of the Alevi-Bektasi Federation. “The existence of the Diyanet is incompatible with the secular nature of the state.”

Alevis are loosely related to Shia Islam and number between 12 million and 20 million of Turkey’s 70 million citizens.

“Alevis are not officially recognised as a religious community, they often experience difficulties in opening places of worship and compulsory religious instruction in schools fails to acknowledge non-Sunni identities,” the European Union said in its 2004 report on Turkey’s progress toward accession.

The criticism is expected to be repeated in this year’s report due on Nov. 9.

“It is certainly one of the long-standing issues for the European Commission in the context of minority rights and religious freedoms,” said one EU diplomat.

Ankara began its long-delayed accession talks on Oct. 3. It must bring its laws and regulations into line with those of the EU in several areas before it can join.

Turkey has already made wide-ranging reforms aimed at bolstering human rights and individual freedoms as part of its EU bid. But the EU says the reforms must be fully implemented.

Alevis warn that despite its officially secular status, Turkey is in danger of becoming a Sunni state.

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) has its roots in political Sunni Islam and refuses to recognise Alevi meeting places, known as cemevi, or to give them the same state aid as mosques receive.

“Alevism is not a religion. If it were a religion, it would need places of worship,” Erdogan said two years ago.

Izzettin Dogan, chairman of one of Turkey’s leading Alevi organisations, said Alevism was the “original essence of Islam.”

“Have a clean heart, a good heart, love humanity, don’t do anything bad to anyone ... the biggest sin for Alevis is to hurt someone else, to do an injustice to someone else,” said Dogan, who is a member of the Cem Vakfi group.

Alevis say their beliefs are a synthesis of mystical Islamic Sufism, some Christianity, Zoroastrianism and pre-Islamic shamanism brought from Central Asia as the Turks began their westward conquest of Anatolia from the 11th century onwards.

At an Alevi cemevi in a rundown area of Istanbul, hundreds of people kneel in a circle, men on one side, women on the other, praying and singing along to the seven-stringed guitar-like saz. The men and women rock back and forth, entranced by the haunting rhythm and religious chants.

The music and mixing of the sexes, banned in religious services by mainstream Islam, have led some to say Alevis are not Muslims at all and accuse them of conducting sexual orgies.

“According to their understanding, men and women can’t be in the same place, if they are it means some sort of revelry is going on, it can’t be a place of worship,” said Dogan.

Since the secular Turkish Republic replaced the officially Sunni Ottoman Empire in 1923, Islam has been kept firmly under state control. Imams are paid and told what to preach by the Diyanet, which controls some 76,000 mosques.

The Diyanet employs around 100,000 people. Its 2006 budget will be larger than those of the Interior and Foreign ministries and equals about a third of the state funds spent on health.

The Diyanet spends no money on Alevis and, according to members of that group, does not employ any Alevis.

“The Diyanet is a like a state within the state,” said Dogan. “How can you believe in freedom of religion when you use the taxes collected from all of us and give it only to Sunni Muslims? ... The secular state is becoming a Sunni state.”

The Diyanet has a simple answer: if Alevis are Muslims, they should go the mosque.

It has built mosques across the country, some in Alevi villages like Yenicekoy, a small farming community on the rolling plains of eastern Thrace, west of Istanbul.

“There used to be an imam at the mosque, but he left because there was no congregation,” said villager Sedat Ozturk.

In the nearby Alevi village of Cesmeli, men sit smoking and drinking tea, ignoring the dawn-til-dusk Ramazan fast and listening to the call to prayer from the mosque next door.

No one stirs from their seats.

The imam is alone in the mosque, but determined.

“I made the call to prayer 10 minutes ago, now I shall pray,” he said.

Turkish Alevis and Sufism
Turkey’s Alevis fear secularism under threat (November 1, 2005) in *Dawn* [Pakistan]

By Jon Hemming

YENICEKOY (Turkey): Everyone in the Turkish village of Yenicekoy is Muslim. They have a mosque, but no one goes there. It is Ramazan, but no one is fasting. Turkey’s Alevis are one of Islam’s most liberal sects. They sing and play mystical music at religious ceremonies attended by men and women. They drink alcohol, do not fast and do not go on pilgrimage to Makkah.

Long oppressed under Ottoman rule, the Alevis say they still face discrimination, even though the government has officially championed religious freedoms and human rights as it bids to gain membership to the European Union.

In a country where most Muslims belong to the Sunni group and Islam is tightly controlled by Ankara’s Religious Affairs Directorate or Diyanet, the Alevis say they have been neglected.

“The Diyanet is the state’s religious institution, but only represents Sunni beliefs,” said Fevzi Gumus, general-secretary of the Alevi-Bektasi Federation. “The existence of the Diyanet is incompatible with the secular nature of the state.”

Alevis are loosely related to Shia Islam and number between 12 million and 20 million of Turkey’s 70 million citizens.

“Alevis are not officially recognised as a religious community, they often experience difficulties in opening places of worship and compulsory religious instruction in schools fails to acknowledge non-Sunni identities,” the European Union said in its 2004 report on Turkey’s progress toward accession.

The criticism is expected to be repeated in this year’s report due on Nov. 9.

“It is certainly one of the long-standing issues for the European Commission in the context of minority rights and religious freedoms,” said one EU diplomat.

Ankara began its long-delayed accession talks on Oct. 3. It must bring its laws and regulations into line with those of the EU in several areas before it can join.

Turkey has already made wide-ranging reforms aimed at bolstering human rights and individual freedoms as part of its EU bid. But the EU says the reforms must be fully implemented.

Alevis warn that despite its officially secular status, Turkey is in danger of becoming a Sunni state.

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) has its roots in political Sunni Islam and refuses to recognise Alevi meeting places, known as cemevi, or to give them the same state aid as mosques receive.

“Alevism is not a religion. If it were a religion, it would need places of worship,” Erdogan said two years ago.

Izzettin Dogan, chairman of one of Turkey’s leading Alevi organisations, said Alevism was the “original essence of Islam.”

“Have a clean heart, a good heart, love humanity, don’t do anything bad to anyone ... the biggest sin for Alevis is to hurt someone else, to do an injustice to someone else,” said Dogan, who is a member of the Cem Vakfi group.

Alevis say their beliefs are a synthesis of mystical Islamic Sufism, some Christianity, Zoroastrianism and pre-Islamic shamanism brought from Central Asia as the Turks began their westward conquest of Anatolia from the 11th century onwards.

At an Alevi cemevi in a rundown area of Istanbul, hundreds of people kneel in a circle, men on one side, women on the other, praying and singing along to the seven-stringed guitar-like saz. The men and women rock back and forth, entranced by the haunting rhythm and religious chants.

The music and mixing of the sexes, banned in religious services by mainstream Islam, have led some to say Alevis are not Muslims at all and accuse them of conducting sexual orgies.

“According to their understanding, men and women can’t be in the same place, if they are it means some sort of revelry is going on, it can’t be a place of worship,” said Dogan.

Since the secular Turkish Republic replaced the officially Sunni Ottoman Empire in 1923, Islam has been kept firmly under state control. Imams are paid and told what to preach by the Diyanet, which controls some 76,000 mosques.

The Diyanet employs around 100,000 people. Its 2006 budget will be larger than those of the Interior and Foreign ministries and equals about a third of the state funds spent on health.

The Diyanet spends no money on Alevis and, according to members of that group, does not employ any Alevis.

“The Diyanet is a like a state within the state,” said Dogan. “How can you believe in freedom of religion when you use the taxes collected from all of us and give it only to Sunni Muslims? ... The secular state is becoming a Sunni state.”

The Diyanet has a simple answer: if Alevis are Muslims, they should go the mosque.

It has built mosques across the country, some in Alevi villages like Yenicekoy, a small farming community on the rolling plains of eastern Thrace, west of Istanbul.

“There used to be an imam at the mosque, but he left because there was no congregation,” said villager Sedat Ozturk.

In the nearby Alevi village of Cesmeli, men sit smoking and drinking tea, ignoring the dawn-til-dusk Ramazan fast and listening to the call to prayer from the mosque next door.

No one stirs from their seats.

The imam is alone in the mosque, but determined.

“I made the call to prayer 10 minutes ago, now I shall pray,” he said.

Turkish Alevis and Sufism
Turkey’s Alevis fear secularism under threat (November 1, 2005) in *Dawn* [Pakistan]

By Jon Hemming

YENICEKOY (Turkey): Everyone in the Turkish village of Yenicekoy is Muslim. They have a mosque, but no one goes there. It is Ramazan, but no one is fasting. Turkey’s Alevis are one of Islam’s most liberal sects. They sing and play mystical music at religious ceremonies attended by men and women. They drink alcohol, do not fast and do not go on pilgrimage to Makkah.

Long oppressed under Ottoman rule, the Alevis say they still face discrimination, even though the government has officially championed religious freedoms and human rights as it bids to gain membership to the European Union.

In a country where most Muslims belong to the Sunni group and Islam is tightly controlled by Ankara’s Religious Affairs Directorate or Diyanet, the Alevis say they have been neglected.

“The Diyanet is the state’s religious institution, but only represents Sunni beliefs,” said Fevzi Gumus, general-secretary of the Alevi-Bektasi Federation. “The existence of the Diyanet is incompatible with the secular nature of the state.”

Alevis are loosely related to Shia Islam and number between 12 million and 20 million of Turkey’s 70 million citizens.

“Alevis are not officially recognised as a religious community, they often experience difficulties in opening places of worship and compulsory religious instruction in schools fails to acknowledge non-Sunni identities,” the European Union said in its 2004 report on Turkey’s progress toward accession.

The criticism is expected to be repeated in this year’s report due on Nov. 9.

“It is certainly one of the long-standing issues for the European Commission in the context of minority rights and religious freedoms,” said one EU diplomat.

Ankara began its long-delayed accession talks on Oct. 3. It must bring its laws and regulations into line with those of the EU in several areas before it can join.

Turkey has already made wide-ranging reforms aimed at bolstering human rights and individual freedoms as part of its EU bid. But the EU says the reforms must be fully implemented.

Alevis warn that despite its officially secular status, Turkey is in danger of becoming a Sunni state.

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) has its roots in political Sunni Islam and refuses to recognise Alevi meeting places, known as cemevi, or to give them the same state aid as mosques receive.

“Alevism is not a religion. If it were a religion, it would need places of worship,” Erdogan said two years ago.

Izzettin Dogan, chairman of one of Turkey’s leading Alevi organisations, said Alevism was the “original essence of Islam.”

“Have a clean heart, a good heart, love humanity, don’t do anything bad to anyone ... the biggest sin for Alevis is to hurt someone else, to do an injustice to someone else,” said Dogan, who is a member of the Cem Vakfi group.

Alevis say their beliefs are a synthesis of mystical Islamic Sufism, some Christianity, Zoroastrianism and pre-Islamic shamanism brought from Central Asia as the Turks began their westward conquest of Anatolia from the 11th century onwards.

At an Alevi cemevi in a rundown area of Istanbul, hundreds of people kneel in a circle, men on one side, women on the other, praying and singing along to the seven-stringed guitar-like saz. The men and women rock back and forth, entranced by the haunting rhythm and religious chants.

The music and mixing of the sexes, banned in religious services by mainstream Islam, have led some to say Alevis are not Muslims at all and accuse them of conducting sexual orgies.

“According to their understanding, men and women can’t be in the same place, if they are it means some sort of revelry is going on, it can’t be a place of worship,” said Dogan.

Since the secular Turkish Republic replaced the officially Sunni Ottoman Empire in 1923, Islam has been kept firmly under state control. Imams are paid and told what to preach by the Diyanet, which controls some 76,000 mosques.

The Diyanet employs around 100,000 people. Its 2006 budget will be larger than those of the Interior and Foreign ministries and equals about a third of the state funds spent on health.

The Diyanet spends no money on Alevis and, according to members of that group, does not employ any Alevis.

“The Diyanet is a like a state within the state,” said Dogan. “How can you believe in freedom of religion when you use the taxes collected from all of us and give it only to Sunni Muslims? ... The secular state is becoming a Sunni state.”

The Diyanet has a simple answer: if Alevis are Muslims, they should go the mosque.

It has built mosques across the country, some in Alevi villages like Yenicekoy, a small farming community on the rolling plains of eastern Thrace, west of Istanbul.

“There used to be an imam at the mosque, but he left because there was no congregation,” said villager Sedat Ozturk.

In the nearby Alevi village of Cesmeli, men sit smoking and drinking tea, ignoring the dawn-til-dusk Ramazan fast and listening to the call to prayer from the mosque next door.

No one stirs from their seats.

The imam is alone in the mosque, but determined.

“I made the call to prayer 10 minutes ago, now I shall pray,” he said.

Wie kann ein volk , dass:
-alkohol trinkt
-keine ahnung vom Islam hat
-nicht fastet
-nicht beetet
-mohammed nicht als propheten anerkennt
-sich überhaupt nicht an den Islam hält
-keinen Koran ließt
-sich überhaupt nicht an die Regeln Gottes (Allahs) hält
ein Moslem sein . Deshalb sind Aleviten keine Moslems, weil sie in keinem aber auch keinem einzigen Punkt mit den Grundlagen des Islams übereinstimmen.
Als Ail (ihr führer) noch lebte waren sie sehr angesehene moslems aber nach seinem Tod Haben die aleviten den Islam verabscheut und heute verabscheuen sie den Islam immer noch.