Das Verschwinden des Schwarzen Vaters...eine Gefahr auch für D.?

@Thawra
Man kann Ursachen dadurch ausschliessen in gewisser Weise.

@Puschelhasi

Aber auch höchstens das, für eine positive Bestätigung, was die Ursache ist, reicht das nicht.

@Puschelhasi
häh? Wie denn? Da es niemals ein und derselbe Grund sein wird, für alle Väter, sondern es sich aus allem möglichen zusammenstellen kann, ist es doch fast unmöglich, DEN Grund zu finden und der soll dann auch noch ganz besonders für Schwarze Väter gelten oder gar nur. Es liegt doch nicht nur am Vater und da es keine Statistik gibt, die "verschwindende Väter" behandelt, wird das wohl schwierig.......da spielen so viele Ursachen eine Rolle, und dann auch noch nur einen Teil, den Schwarzen Vater explizit zu behandeln, erachte ich als nicht sinnvoll.

so, noch etwas, da wird auch über Gründe gesprochen.....
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/06/14/us-usa-fathers-idUSN0419185720070614 (Archiv-Version vom 10.05.2013)

@Thawra
Nein , auf diese Weise kann man nur bestimmte Thesen fuer Ursachen ausschliessen.
wie.z.B. Armut, das kann man als Alleingrund klar ausschliessen.

Es gibt also noch die Punkte der schwarzen:

Kultur,
Kriminalitaet,
Religion,
Geschichte,
persönliche Gründe

@Puschelhasi
könntest Du bitte die "Punkte der Schwarzen" etwas genauer ausführen? Was genau meinst Du damit, inwiefern beziehen sich diese Punkte nur auf Schwarze, was unterscheidet diese Punkte mit den Punkten anderer Gruppen verschwindender Väter?

Beginne pn möchte ich einmal mit der statistischen Grösse der Schwarzen Kriminalität , hier anhand des Prozentsatzes der Gefängnisinsassen, according to race:

Percent of State and Federal Inmates, by Race
1990 2001
White 35.6% 36.1%
Black 44.5 46.3
Hispanic 17.4% 15.6%
Other 2.5 2.0
Source: Prisoners in 2001, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics.


Read more: Percent of State and Federal Inmates, by Race http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0903755.html#ixzz2VhN7Tmv4

Hier erkennt man eine frapant hohe Anzahl an Schwarzen Kriminellen im Vergleich zu anderen Rassen in den USA, beispielhaft genommen.

Noch frapanter wird dieser statistische Wert, wenn man die Normalverteilung der Ethnien in den USA in der Gesamtbevölkerung betrachtet.

Hier stellen die Schwarzen lediglich 15, nach anderen Lesarten 17 % der Population.

@Puschelhasi
dies ist ja bekannt, die Staaten betreffend, obwohl dies ja alte Daten sind......Du solltest Dir aber auch Gedanken darüber machen, warum dies so ist, wie viele von diesen Insassen Väter sind, sind sie deshalb "abwesend"? Haben sie trotzdem Kontakt, durch Briefe, Besuche? Zählt das trotzdem als "Abwesenheit"? Sonst ist es schwierig, daraus Rückschlüsse auf die verschwindenden Väter zu ziehen.....
ich würde es begrüßen, wenn Du nicht das Wort Rasse benutzt, das ist in USA kein Problem, hier wohl etwas unpassend.....

Stellen wir jetzt also Überlegungen an, was daraus folgt, bzw. inwiefern diese überdurchschnittlich hohe Zahl an Schwarzen Männern in Gefängnisse mit der Problematik des topic in Zusammenhang steht, was konsequent daraus folgt und was vll ein Jreislauf von Ursache und Wirkung sein kann.

Dazu bitte ich folgende Zahlenwerke zu betrachten:

Father Factor in Incarceration

Even after controlling for income, youths in father-absent households still had significantly higher odds of incarceration than those in mother-father families. Youths who never had a father in the household experienced the highest odds.
Source: Harper, Cynthia C. and Sara S. McLanahan. “Father Absence and Youth Incarceration.” Journal of Research on Adolescence 14 (September 2004): 369-397.
A 2002 Department of Justice survey of 7,000 inmates revealed that 39% of jail inmates lived in mother-only households. Approximately forty-six percent of jail inmates in 2002 had a previously incarcerated family member. One-fifth experienced a father in prison or jail.
Source: James, Doris J. Profile of Jail Inmates, 2002. (NCJ 201932). Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, July 2004.

Hier bitte besonders zu beachten:

EVEN AFTER CONTROLLING FOR INCOME! Der Armutsgrund wurde also hier quasi bereinigt in Betracht gezogen. Ein weiteres Indiz gegen die Begruendung Armut sei entscheidender Grund.

@Puschelhasi
Also vaterlos aufgewachsene Kinder sind eher im Gefängnis als andere Kinder....da hatte ich doch schon Statistiken gepostet, ich such sie gleich noch einmal raus.....und hier mal was aktuelleres......

man muss dabei aber bedenken, ob es sich um Gangmitglieder handelt, bei den Vätern und den Kindern im Gefängnis (ist ja noch einmal eine ganz andere Struktur)

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pim09st.pdf

edit, hier der link, wie sich der "verschwundene" Vater auf Kinder auswirkt.....da steht alles nötige drin, hatte ich ja schon gepostet, mit Auszügen
http://apps.olin.wustl.edu/macarthur/working%20papers/wp-mclanahan2.htm (Archiv-Version vom 06.06.2013)

@Puschelhasi
für was jetzt? Den verschwindenden Vater? Du diskutierst so unstrukturiert. Geht es jetzt darum, warum Väter verschwinden oder darum, wie es sich auf die Kinder auswirkt?

wo hat hier jemand begründet, Armut sei ein entscheidender Punkt? Für was? Den verschwindenden Vater? Das kriminelle Kind? Armut ist sicherlich AUCH ein Grund, für beides. Es gibt nicht EINEN Grund für irgendetwas.....es ist ein Zusammenspiel......

http://ismarriageforwhitepeople.stanford.edu/how-did-i-choose-the-title-for-this-book/
How Did I Choose the Title for this Book?
This book began as a purely scholarly book, and I had a variety of more academic titles in mind, such as Race, Marriage and Inequality; The Evolution of an American Institution; and The Effects of Economics and Culture on Intimate Relationships. My research assistant at the time told me that my suggested titles were all boring, and that if I wanted people to read the book, I needed a more attention getting title.

The title comes from a young African American boy in Washington, D.C.. When a journalist visited his 6th grade class, one of the other boys said he wanted to learn about being a good father. The journalist volunteered to bring some married couples to talk about child rearing, but the boy said he wasn’t interested in learning about marriage. Then his friend interjected, “Marriage is for white people.”

The boy’s statement jarred me. It captured more poignantly than anything I had ever read not simply the fact of the black marriage decline, but also its emotional valence. The boy’s observation stirred in me a whole range of feelings, anger, sadness, confusion.

I embraced his observation as a title though because it confronted directly the sort of unpleasant reality that adults often seek to avoid. I transformed his statement into a question to match the sense of exploration and curiosity that pervades the book. I hope for the book to open a conversation not to end one.

I chose the title for another reason as well. The title asks not only whether marriage isn’t for black people, but also whether it isn’t for white people. An understanding of the marriage decline as a society-wide development is a central point of my book. The African American marriage decline represents a particularly extreme expression of developments that are reshaping the terrain of intimacy for everyone. As never before.

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Problem-with-Black-Fathers-Rick-Banks-11-29-2011.html (Archiv-Version vom 11.06.2013)
What's the Problem with Black Fathers?

If many black men are failing as fathers, it's because they aren't marrying their children's mother. We share the burden -- and the blame.

By Rick R. Banks, November 29, 2011

African American fathers are often reviled as the most uninvolved group of parents in our nation. Recently, after black teenagers in Philadelphia committed a series of assaults and acts of vandalism, Mayor Michael Nutter singled out African American fathers for especially harsh criticism. "Part of the problem in our community, the black community," he said, is that "we have too many men making too many babies that they don't want to take care of." Comedian Bill Cosby and then-presidential candidate Barack Obama have similarly castigated black fathers for, in the words of Obama, having "abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men."

It is true that many black fathers are absent from their children's lives. But it is not because they don't care about them. It is more because they are not married to the child's mother.

For Mayor Nutter and even President Obama to have suggested otherwise is misguided, if politically expedient, rhetoric. A primary reason that black fathers fail to parent their children is that they do not marry, and stay married to, their child's mother. Residents of black urban communities are the least likely to marry of any population in our nation. And when they do marry, their unions are more likely than those of any other group to dissolve.

The waning of black marriage makes it difficult for men to be fathers because a father's relationship with his child depends vitally on the father's relationship with the child's mother. Marriage links a father to his child, as captured in the aphorism: "A mother's a mother for life, a father's a father only with a wife." The mother, as the primary caregiver, typically mediates the relationship between father and child. If the parents' intimate relationship dissolves or, even worse, if either enters a relationship with someone else, the mother has less of an incentive to help the father to remain a part of the child's life. And if the father has no relationship with the child, he is less likely to support the child financially.

Given the difficulties of being an unmarried parent, why then don't more black men, if they care about their children, marry their child's mother? Poor black couples don't wed for the same reason that disadvantaged couples of all races have become less inclined to do so. Marriage may be a matter of love and devotion, but it is also an exchange. A big part of what the man offers is his ability to help support the family. The better his economic prospects, the more appealing a husband he will seem to many women. If they are to be husbands, men need to be able to be providers.

Unfortunately, all too many of the men in cities like Philadelphia have little hope of being able to support a family. The shifting labor market has eliminated the sort of well-paying blue-collar jobs on which earlier generations of men relied. And in urban areas, men are disproportionately likely to lack to the college education that well-paying jobs typically require.

If only the waning of marriage among African Americans could be remedied by urging men to "take responsibility." Such moral injunctions may make good theater, but they are no substitute for effective public policy. Politicians would do better to improve the school system, so that students are equipped with the skills necessary to become valuable employees and contributing members of society. If young men had jobs, they'd be more attractive partners for the women who have their children.

Those marauding bands of teenagers in Philadelphia have been failed by their parents. But their parents also have been failed by a government that has not provided an education for a changing economic landscape. That's a problem for which we all bear responsibility.

Ralph Richard Banks is the Jackson Eli Reynolds Professor of Law at Stanford Law School and the author of Is Marriage for White People? How the African American Marriage Decline Affects Everyone.

Banks's column, "Banks On It," is published monthly on the Faith and Family portal. Subscribe via email or RSS.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/06/15/a-tale-of-two-fathers/

mich würde auch mal interessieren, wie Du darauf kommst, dass der verschwindende, verschwundene Vater eins der gröten Probleme der "black community" ist
@Puschelhasi
kannst Du das belegen, dass es so ist?

Ich sehe das nämlich anders, hier ein Beispiel, was TATSÄCHLICH ein großes Problem ist:

Health Disparities - Examples

African American women and men 45-74 years of age in 2006 had the largest death rates from heart disease and stroke compared with the same age women and men of other racial and ethnic populations.
From 2005-2008, people with the largest prevalence of hypertension were 65 years and older, African American adults, U.S.-born adults, adults with less than a college education, and those with public health insurance (64 years and younger), diabetes, obesity, or a disability compared with their counterparts.
Among many sex-age groups, the prevalence of obesity from 2005-2008 was lower among White Americans than among African Americans or Mexican Americans. Among females aged 20-39 years, the prevalence of obesity was largest among African Americans.
Infants of African American women in 2006 had death rates twice as large as infants of White American women.
Adolescent and adult African Americans ages 15-59 years in 2007 had the largest death rates from homicide, as compared with other racial and ethnic populations of the same ages.
HIV infection rate among African Americans in 2008 was the largest rate compared with those of other racial and ethnic populations.

Hispanic American and African American adults aged 18-64 years had substantially larger percentages of uninsured populations compared with Asian/Pacific Islander and White Americans.
Colorectal screening obtained in 2008 by African Americans, Hispanics, and American Indian/Alaska Natives was lower than screening obtained by White Americans.
During the 2009–10 influenza season, lower influenza vaccination coverage was observed among African American and Hispanic American adults than among White adults.
In 2009, high school completion among African American adults was the second lowest (second to completion among Hispanic adults and similar to the completion among American Indian/Alaska Native adults).
In 2009, the percentage of African American adults living in poverty was among the largest compared with other racial/ethnic populations (similar to percentages among American Indians/Alaska Natives and Hispanic Americans).
In 2009, African American adults more often lived in inadequate and unhealthy housing than White adults. The percentage of African American adults living in inadequate housing was similar to percentages among American Indian/Alaska Native and Hispanic adults. These populations had the largest percentages of adults living in inadequate housing.
Factors contributing to poor health outcomes among African Americans include discrimination, cultural barriers, and lack of access to health care.

http://www.cdc.gov/minorityhealth/populations/REMP/black.html#Stats (Archiv-Version vom 22.05.2013)

Tussinelda schrieb:mich würde auch mal interessieren, wie Du darauf kommst, dass der verschwindende, verschwundene Vater eins der gröten Probleme der "black community" ist

Das ist nicht das größte Problem. Es liegt wie schon hier erwähnt wurde an den sozialen Umständen, wie diese Menschen aufwachsen, was für Erwartungen man im Vorfeld schon von diesen Menschen hat die in sozialen Brennpunkten einfach keine Chancen haben und das wird dann weiter getragen und verinnerlicht. Viele Schwarze sehen sich selbst nicht in dieser Rolle des versorgenden Vaters (siehe dein Link dazu) weil sie einfach nicht die Möglichkeit dazu haben versorgen zu können und das ist eben ein Teufelskreislauf der sich wie ein roter Faden durch die Black Community zieht. Das hat aber m.M.n nichts mit der Hautfarbe zu tun, sondern eben mit der Benachteiligung im Allgemeinen.

@CosmicQueen
ich weiß das, es ist nicht das Problem, dass der Vater Schwarz ist, sondern dass Schwarze Menschen benachteiligt sind, denn wenn Menschen anderer Gruppen die gleichen schlechten Voraussetzungen haben (das sind nur in der Regel insgesamt weniger, die so benachteiligt sind), dann passiert ja das Gleiche....

@Tussinelda
Ich weiß das du das weißt, ich wollte das nur noch mal unterstreichen. ;)

Beleuchten wir im Zusammenhang mit der absenten Schwarzer Vater Katastrophe den Aspekt der inhaftierten Schwarzn Frauen, ich bitte folgendes dazu zu lesen:

However, problems resulting from mass incarceration extend beyond economic and political aspects to reach community lives as well. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, 46% of black female inmates were likely to have grown up in a home with only their mothers. A study by Bresler and Lewis shows how incarcerated African American women were more likely to have been raised in a single female headed household while incarcerated white women were more likely to be raised in a two parent household.[12] Black women’s lives are often shaped by the prison system because they have intersecting familial and community obligations. The “increase incarceration of black men and the sex ratio imbalance it induces shape the behavior of young black women.”[13]
Education, fertility, and employment for black women are affected due to increased mass incarceration. Black women’s employment rates were increased, shown in Mechoulan’s data, due to increased education. Higher rates of black male incarceration lowered the odds of nonmarital teenage motherhood and black women’s ability to get an educational degree, thus resulting in early employment.[14] Whether incarcerated themselves or related to someone who was incarcerated, women are often conformed into stereotypes of how they are supposed to behave yet are isolated from society at the same time.[15]
Furthermore, this system can disintegrate familial life and structure. Black and Latino youth are more likely to be incarcerated after coming in contact with the juvenile justice system. In a study by Victor Rios, 75% of prison inmates in the United States are Black and Latinos between the ages of 20 and 39.[16] Furthermore, societal institutions – such as schools, families, and community centers can impact youth by initiating them into this system of criminalization from an early age. These institutions, traditionally set up to protect the youth, contribute to mass incarceration by mimicking the criminal justice system.[16]
From a different perspective, parents in prison face further moral and emotional dilemmas because they are separated from their children. Both black and white women face difficulty with where to place their children while incarcerated and how to maintain contact with them.[17] According to the study by Bresler and Lewis, black women are more likely to leave their children with related kin whereas white women’s children are likely to be placed in foster care.[17] In a report by the Bureau of Justice Statistics revealed how in 1999, seven percent of black children had a parent in prison, making them nine times more likely to have an incarcerated parent than white children.[8]
Having parents in prison can have adverse psychological effects as children are deprived of parental guidance, emotional support, and financial help.[8] Because many prisons are located in remote areas, incarcerated parents face physical barriers in seeing their children and vice versa. Societal influences, such as low education among African American men, can also lead to higher rates of incarceration. Imprisonment has become “disproportionately widespread among low-education black men” in which the penal system has evolved to be a “new feature of American race and class inequality”.[10] Scholar Pettit and Western’s research has shown how incarceration rates for African Americans are “about eight times higher than those for whites,” and prison inmates have less than “12 years of completed schooling” on average.[10]

wikipedia

Man erkennt, dass der nichtinvolvierte Vater weitreichende Auswirkungen auch auf die weiblichen Schwarzen , insbesondere die Kinder und Kindeskinder hat.

@Puschelhasi
ja, man erkennt aber auch, womit es zu tun hat, Du befasst Dich mit der Auswirkung, die es hat, aber nicht mit den Ursachen......denn es hat alles etwas mit Bildung/Einkommen/sonstigen fehlenden Möglichkeiten zu tun, darauf läuft es immer wieder raus.

Interessiert sich denn wirklich niemand von 70.000 Usern für diese Schwarze Väter Problematik? Ich habe das Gefühl ich spreche mit mir selbst...